Discuss all things Ghostbusters here, unless they would be better suited in one of the few forums below.
#4977293
[EDIT: My analysis below is inconsistent with behind the scenes information (Egon's credentials) from Afterlife. Therefore, I am likely wrong (despite Egon's diplomas being unreadable on screen to my eye). However, my underlying critique of Venkman's shambolic academic background and the breakdown of expertise in the group is still correct as far as I can tell].

Call it a fan theory or just an amusing thought.

Nowhere in a live action film are the Ghostbusters referred to as parapsychologists. Only one of them is a parapsychologist with formal credentials in paranormal studies, and this fact lends itself to the cynical and ironic comedic tone of the movie.

Venkman is a parapsychologist. The others are not. Stantz is an engineer. Spengler is a physicist.

Note: The below justification is semi-technical. I did my undergrad in philosophy with an emphasis in the philosophy of science. I am proceeding under the assumption that parapsychology is not an expansive interdisciplinary field in which its practitioners somehow know the ins and outs of particle physics, human psychology, mythology and spirituality, etc. Paranormal research is, for the sake of argument, a multi-disciplinary field, but parapsychology is not. Furthermore, I will assume that parapsychology is not a proper academic discipline even in the context of the film

In the film, parapsychology is merely an area of study in psychology (similar to string theory in physics) and not a discipline in and of itself. No "department of parapsychology" exists in any college at any university, and no department would hire someone on that basis alone.

Venkman says he has a Ph.D in parapsychology, and it's reasonable to assume he is a "real" parapsychologist in the sense that his research focuses on that area...and given the knockoff Milgram experiment at the beginning of the first film. However, he does not take the subject seriously, and he almost certainly teaches under the auspices of conventional psychology. His skepticism toward the substance of his own field is explicit and obvious early in the film...evidenced by his eye rolling apathy toward what the other two are doing as they investigate the Library disturbance. Venkman says, "you guys have really gone around the bend on this ghost business...meeting and greeting every schizo in the Five Burroughs....what have you seen?"
The paranormal is an merely expedient topic from which Venkman can grift and subsist off of academia's golden tit, and maybe he finds it fascinating from the standpoint of studying human psychology more broadly. He has a second Ph.D in a generally bogus niche social science because it was easy. More specifically, he didn't know what else to do with himself after finishing his first dissertation (which happens to academics a lot). He's mildly interested in how people's crazy beliefs impact behavior, hence his studies into "effects on non-ESP ability," and he pursued a second Ph.D to stay in school as long as he could. At the beginning of the film, he is a college professor doing just enough research in a questionable area to keep up with publish or perish requirements and maybe someday get tenure. He studies people who believe in the paranormal. He himself does not believe. Venkman certainly does not appreciate the physical reality of paranormal phenomena potentially accessible to the hard sciences vis-a-vis physics.

However, Venkman is the only academic parapsychologist (as if such a thing existed) in the group and the only one with formal credentials in a subject directly related to the topic of the paranormal. Ironically, his colleagues take the subject more seriously than he does and know more about psychology-adjacent topics than he. They work together in the University's 'Paranormal Studies' lab, which is merely a space for conducting a particular kind of research irrespective of the degrees held by its faculty. In this case, 'Paranormal Studies' is a multi-disciplinary field of research much like 'international studies,' 'climate research,' 'women's studies,' etc. As an aside, I surmise the three of them are almost certainly adjunct faculty (associate professors).

Ray and Egon research and study the paranormal, but they have no formal psychology or parapsychology training. They are essentially cross-disciplinary researchers and very likely teach conventional physics and engineering in the classroom and in their respective departments. They study the paranormal (and science underlying it) from the perspectives of their own academic and technical disciplines in a Paranormal Studies lab and in the field. Moreover, no field in the natural sciences considers dabbling in quantum spookiness and supernatural mumbo jumbo to be acceptable, and it is only natural for them to be lumped in with parapsychology and Venkman (who introduced the two of them according to a deleted scene). But Ray an Egon study psyco-kinetic phenomenon as an unconventional research topic adjacent to quantum physics...not from a standpoint of a fictional psycho-physical discipline. Ray and Egon are black sheep. Where their research crosses into the psychic and psychological realms, they consult occult literature (Spates Catalogue, Tobin Spirit Guide, etc.) applying their academic hard science expertise to given questions. When Ray tells Peter, "You never studied," he's referring to the full breadth of information available across disciplines, in popular (pseudoscientific) literature, and in relevant hard science subjects relevant to paranormal investigation. Ray does not mean, "you never studied parapsychology," the content of which is largely mum in describing psychic phenomena with mathematical precision.

Ray is an engineer, and I came to this conclusion long before GB 2016 specified that for one of the characters. Ray being an engineer is consistent with his demonstrable mechanical skills, understanding civil engineering and architecture, obsession with technical details etc. Furthermore, no amount of theoretical physics knowledge necessarily gives one the technical knowhow to design and build particle accelerators or other pieces of equipment from scratch. It was engineers who turned the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) into reality. Ray designed (engineered) the Ghostbusters' equipment...with input and oversight from Egon...with raw and assembled materials; both he and Egon build their gadgets. This began with the simple detection and recording equipment they used early in the first movie and progressed to proton packs and containment units. Egon almost certainly became savvy and handy enough to assemble equipment himself (long before Afterlife), but at the end of the day...

Egon is a physicist. Only Egon knows, understands, and is able to derive the equations needed to detect and catch ghosts. Without the math, no such capabilities could exist. It's Egon's detailed understanding of physics (especially quantum field theory and electromagnetism) that allowed him and Ray to put the psychic/paranormal (mislabeled as supernatural) into physical terms reducible to natural science. With that information, they were able to devise methods and capabilities for trapping ghosts and holding them indefinitely.

That's a lot to read, but I may expand this into a YouTube video much in the Film Theorist vain. Feel free to offer counterarguments and evidence against this interpretation.

Disclaimer: I don't actually believe "quantum spookiness" has anything to do with consciousness and the existence of ghosts.
Last edited by Egon’s_Contraption on January 19th, 2023, 3:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.
#4977295
Egon’s_Contraption wrote:Egon is a physicist. Only Egon knows, understands, and is able to derive the equations needed to detect and catch ghosts. Without the math, no such capabilities could exist. It's Egon's detailed understanding of physics (especially quantum field theory and electromagnetism) that allowed him and Ray to put the psychic/paranormal (mislabeled as supernatural) into physical terms reducible to natural science. With that information, they were able to devise methods and capabilities for trapping ghosts and holding them indefinitely..
Egon's wall of diplomas in the underground lab in Afterlife confirms he had many degrees, including a degree in Psychology in the faculty of Psychobiology from Columbia, a degree in Parapsychology from NYU, and a Doctor of Philosophy in Nuclear Engineering from MIT. The rest weren't legible and no behind-the-scenes photos have surfaced yet of them aside from the art of the movie book. So yes, he was a physicist but in fact also a Parapsychologist like Peter BUT in actuality he was the polymath of the group.
Kingpin liked this
#4977311
Egon’s_Contraption wrote: January 18th, 2023, 11:10 pm Call it a fan theory or just an amusing thought.

Nowhere in a live action film are the Ghostbusters referred to as parapsychologists. Only one of them is a parapsychologist with formal credentials in paranormal studies, and this fact lends itself to the cynical and ironic comedic tone of the movie.

Venkman is a parapsychologist. The others are not. Stantz is an engineer. Spengler is a physicist.

Note: The below justification is semi-technical. I did my undergrad in philosophy with an emphasis in the philosophy of science. I am proceeding under the assumption that parapsychology is not an expansive interdisciplinary field in which its practitioners somehow know the ins and outs of particle physics, human psychology, mythology and spirituality, etc. Paranormal research is, for the sake of argument, a multi-disciplinary field, but parapsychology is not. Furthermore, I will assume that parapsychology is not a proper academic discipline even in the context of the film

In the film, parapsychology is merely an area of study in psychology (similar to string theory in physics) and not a discipline in and of itself. No "department of parapsychology" exists in any college at any university, and no department would hire someone on that basis alone.

Venkman says he has a Ph.D in parapsychology, and it's reasonable to assume he is a "real" parapsychologist in the sense that his research focuses on that area...and given the knockoff Milgram experiment at the beginning of the first film. However, he does not take the subject seriously, and he almost certainly teaches under the auspices of conventional psychology. His skepticism toward the substance of his own field is explicit and obvious early in the film...evidenced by his eye rolling apathy toward what the other two are doing as they investigate the Library disturbance. Venkman says, "you guys have really gone around the bend on this ghost business...meeting and greeting every schizo in the Five Burroughs....what have you seen?"
The paranormal is an merely expedient topic from which Venkman can grift and subsist off of academia's golden tit, and maybe he finds it fascinating from the standpoint of studying human psychology more broadly. He has a second Ph.D in a generally bogus niche social science because it was easy. More specifically, he didn't know what else to do with himself after finishing his first dissertation (which happens to academics a lot). He's mildly interested in how people's crazy beliefs impact behavior, hence his studies into "effects on non-ESP ability," and he pursued a second Ph.D to stay in school as long as he could. At the beginning of the film, he is a college professor doing just enough research in a questionable area to keep up with publish or perish requirements and maybe someday get tenure. He studies people who believe in the paranormal. He himself does not believe. Venkman certainly does not appreciate the physical reality of paranormal phenomena potentially accessible to the hard sciences vis-a-vis physics.

However, Venkman is the only academic parapsychologist (as if such a thing existed) in the group and the only one with formal credentials in a subject directly related to the topic of the paranormal. Ironically, his colleagues take the subject more seriously than he does and know more about psychology-adjacent topics than he. They work together in the University's 'Paranormal Studies' lab, which is merely a space for conducting a particular kind of research irrespective of the degrees held by its faculty. In this case, 'Paranormal Studies' is a multi-disciplinary field of research much like 'international studies,' 'climate research,' 'women's studies,' etc. As an aside, I surmise the three of them are almost certainly adjunct faculty (associate professors).

Ray and Egon research and study the paranormal, but they have no formal psychology or parapsychology training. They are essentially cross-disciplinary researchers and very likely teach conventional physics and engineering in the classroom and in their respective departments. They study the paranormal (and science underlying it) from the perspectives of their own academic and technical disciplines in a Paranormal Studies lab and in the field. Moreover, no field in the natural sciences considers dabbling in quantum spookiness and supernatural mumbo jumbo to be acceptable, and it is only natural for them to be lumped in with parapsychology and Venkman (who introduced the two of them according to a deleted scene). But Ray an Egon study psyco-kinetic phenomenon as an unconventional research topic adjacent to quantum physics...not from a standpoint of a fictional psycho-physical discipline. Ray and Egon are black sheep. Where their research crosses into the psychic and psychological realms, they consult occult literature (Spates Catalogue, Tobin Spirit Guide, etc.) applying their academic hard science expertise to given questions. When Ray tells Peter, "You never studied," he's referring to the full breadth of information available across disciplines, in popular (pseudoscientific) literature, and in relevant hard science subjects relevant to paranormal investigation. Ray does not mean, "you never studied parapsychology," the content of which is largely mum in describing psychic phenomena with mathematical precision.

Ray is an engineer, and I came to this conclusion long before GB 2016 specified that for one of the characters. Ray being an engineer is consistent with his demonstrable mechanical skills, understanding civil engineering and architecture, obsession with technical details etc. Furthermore, no amount of theoretical physics knowledge necessarily gives one the technical knowhow to design and build particle accelerators or other pieces of equipment from scratch. It was engineers who turned the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) into reality. Ray designed (engineered) the Ghostbusters' equipment...with input and oversight from Egon...with raw and assembled materials; both he and Egon build their gadgets. This began with the simple detection and recording equipment they used early in the first movie and progressed to proton packs and containment units. Egon almost certainly became savvy and handy enough to assemble equipment himself (long before Afterlife), but at the end of the day...

Egon is a physicist. Only Egon knows, understands, and is able to derive the equations needed to detect and catch ghosts. Without the math, no such capabilities could exist. It's Egon's detailed understanding of physics (especially quantum field theory and electromagnetism) that allowed him and Ray to put the psychic/paranormal (mislabeled as supernatural) into physical terms reducible to natural science. With that information, they were able to devise methods and capabilities for trapping ghosts and holding them indefinitely.

That's a lot to read, but I may expand this into a YouTube video much in the Film Theorist vain. Feel free to offer counterarguments and evidence against this interpretation.

Disclaimer: I don't actually believe "quantum spookiness" has anything to do with consciousness and the existence of ghosts.
Well, somebody studied.
Thanks for this, it's quite informative. :)
#4977312
Egon’s_Contraption wrote: January 18th, 2023, 11:10 pm However, Venkman is the only academic parapsychologist (as if such a thing existed) in the group and the only one with formal credentials in a subject directly related to the topic of the paranormal. Ironically, his colleagues take the subject more seriously than he does and know more about psychology-adjacent topics than he. They work together in the University's 'Paranormal Studies' lab, which is merely a space for conducting a particular kind of research irrespective of the degrees held by its faculty. In this case, 'Paranormal Studies' is a multi-disciplinary field of research much like 'international studies,' 'climate research,' 'women's studies,' etc. As an aside, I surmise the three of them are almost certainly adjunct faculty (associate professors).
Interestingly, in the 10/7/1983 script, it was noted Peter was an associate professor.

If Peter had 2 degrees, Egon had numerous... stands to reason Ray had a couple, too.
Kingpin liked this
#4977318
mrmichaelt wrote: January 19th, 2023, 12:17 am
Egon’s_Contraption wrote:Egon is a physicist. Only Egon knows, understands, and is able to derive the equations needed to detect and catch ghosts. Without the math, no such capabilities could exist. It's Egon's detailed understanding of physics (especially quantum field theory and electromagnetism) that allowed him and Ray to put the psychic/paranormal (mislabeled as supernatural) into physical terms reducible to natural science. With that information, they were able to devise methods and capabilities for trapping ghosts and holding them indefinitely..
Egon's wall of diplomas in the underground lab in Afterlife confirms he had many degrees, including a degree in Psychology in the faculty of Psychobiology from Columbia, a degree in Parapsychology from NYU, and a Doctor of Philosophy in Nuclear Engineering from MIT. The rest weren't legible and no behind-the-scenes photos have surfaced yet of them aside from the art of the movie book. So yes, he was a physicist but in fact also a Parapsychologist like Peter BUT in actuality he was the polymath of the group.
Well, dammit. I didn’t get to go back and confirm that before writing this and only remember the physics degree catching my eye. I came up with this idea long before Afterlife and took a wager it would gel. I’ll have to revise the theme of my script if I go with my YouTube idea. My original thought (way back when) was that all three had degrees related to parapsychology, but each had a different second degree.

Everything I wrote above should hold if you take out afterlife.

Jason Reitman screwed it all up. My idea’s funnier.
#4977325
To understand Ghostbusters you need understand some of the silly research that was being done in the 60s, 70s and 80s. I watched through the old series called "in search of.." hosted by the late great Leonard nimoy. The show has episodes on stuff that was seriously researched for a time. Like but not limited too: plants responsing to music, mind reading, telekinesis, Atlantis, the Loch Ness Monster... and ghosts. There were serious scientists researching subjects like these at universities like UC Berkeley. In that frame work Spangler, Stanz and Venkmen don't stand out.
#4977330
I used to watch In Search Of before school every morning. It is true that people with real credentials studied such topics and that a very small group of academics study supposed parapsychological phenomena today at an even smaller group of academic institutions. However, this type of research was heavily criticized as being pseudo-scientific and non-reproducible even 40 years ago. Moreover, the research occurred in interdisciplinary institutes created by faculty as is often the case in legitimate subjects; colleges within universities give faculty space in which to use grants in studying whatever they want as long as it doesn't bring discredit to the institution and their researchers continue to publish in respected journals (assuming it is a research-heavy institution).

UPDATE: I will probably revise this topic...should I find time to do a video essay...to be a general analysis of the "pseudo-science fiction of Ghostbusters." I think it would be fun and interesting to explore science and academics in this fantasy world while highlighting the absurdity of much of it...
8bitGamer1984 liked this
#4977333
mrmichaelt wrote: January 19th, 2023, 6:37 am
Egon’s_Contraption wrote: January 18th, 2023, 11:10 pm However, Venkman is the only academic parapsychologist (as if such a thing existed) in the group and the only one with formal credentials in a subject directly related to the topic of the paranormal. Ironically, his colleagues take the subject more seriously than he does and know more about psychology-adjacent topics than he. They work together in the University's 'Paranormal Studies' lab, which is merely a space for conducting a particular kind of research irrespective of the degrees held by its faculty. In this case, 'Paranormal Studies' is a multi-disciplinary field of research much like 'international studies,' 'climate research,' 'women's studies,' etc. As an aside, I surmise the three of them are almost certainly adjunct faculty (associate professors).
Interestingly, in the 10/7/1983 script, it was noted Peter was an associate professor.

If Peter had 2 degrees, Egon had numerous... stands to reason Ray had a couple, too.
So I did some digging. The prop department got careless in drafting Egon's diplomas, which is understandable since the certificates are just out of focus wall candy. The prop makers surely didn't expect internet nerds to pick everything apart and build mythologies behind it all, and the prop supervisors surely have more important things to QC.

None of the diplomas specify which degree it is, none of them are signed, and at least one of the dates makes no sense.

New York University's diploma says "requisite course of study in our Parapsychology..." and confers to Egon Spengler the degree of "Psychology." It should say "in our School of Arts and Sciences" (or some analogous college) and specify "Doctor of Philosophy (or Masters of Arts/Science) in Psychology.

Colombia is no better. It says "for the degree of psychology in the faculty of psychobiology," which is equally erroneous. It should say "for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy (or Masters of Arts/Science)."The phrase "in the faculty of" seems to be tacked on, which...whatever.

The MIT diploma should say "Degree of Doctor of Philosophy in Nuclear Engineering," though this one is the least goofy.

The last one is in Latin because it comes from U Penn. It's utter nonsense. The University of Pennsylvania diploma says "we have admitted Egon Spengler to the degree of university." Wait, what?

It should say "Philosophiae Doctoris." It also leaves off his level of distinction, which is presumably summa cum laude. U Penn diplomas, from what I can tell, do not specify the area of study. That's often the case for university diplomas (including mine).
#4977357
Now we are talking. I love your post and analysis. I agree!

The academic study of psi is not as obscure as most people think.

Dan Aykroyd's interest in the field, my passion for Ghostbusters and some personal experiences I have had, are the reason I took several modules of parapsychology at university while doing my Bachelor of Science.

People would be surprised as to how much statistical analysis is at the heart of paranormal studies.

Aykroyd was a member of the ASPR and had many articles which inspired him to write Ghostbusters.

I believe this was one of the first he mentioned:

Image

https://notendur.hi.is/erlendur/english ... inants.pdf

He also references similar studies:

Image

http://www.global-mind.org/papers/pear/ ... usness.pdf

There are -many- academic institutions that offer paranormal studies. The Koestler Parapsychology Unit at Edinburgh University, Rhine Research Center in Durham which used to be Duke University's parapsychology laboratory, University of Northampton, London Goldsmith, UCLA SB's Applied Neuro Causality Laboratory, and more. There are probably 20 universities that offer psi courses.

Also there are numerous fields in which one could obtain a PhD in parapsychology, they need not all be linked to psi. Breakthroughs in statistical analysis, innovative approaches to the Ganzfeld method, novel theorems of differentiating between pseudo-psi and possible psi, etc.
Last edited by One time on January 19th, 2023, 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#4977377
Egon’s_Contraption wrote: January 19th, 2023, 9:52 am So I did some digging. The prop department got careless in drafting Egon's diplomas, which is understandable since the certificates are just out of focus wall candy. The prop makers surely didn't expect internet nerds to pick everything apart and build mythologies behind it all, and the prop supervisors surely have more important things to QC.

None of the diplomas specify which degree it is, none of them are signed, and at least one of the dates makes no sense.

New York University's diploma says "requisite course of study in our Parapsychology..." and confers to Egon Spengler the degree of "Psychology." It should say "in our School of Arts and Sciences" (or some analogous college) and specify "Doctor of Philosophy (or Masters of Arts/Science) in Psychology.

Colombia is no better. It says "for the degree of psychology in the faculty of psychobiology," which is equally erroneous. It should say "for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy (or Masters of Arts/Science)."The phrase "in the faculty of" seems to be tacked on, which...whatever.

The MIT diploma should say "Degree of Doctor of Philosophy in Nuclear Engineering," though this one is the least goofy.

The last one is in Latin because it comes from U Penn. It's utter nonsense. The University of Pennsylvania diploma says "we have admitted Egon Spengler to the degree of university." Wait, what?

It should say "Philosophiae Doctoris." It also leaves off his level of distinction, which is presumably summa cum laude. U Penn diplomas, from what I can tell, do not specify the area of study. That's often the case for university diplomas (including mine).
I wrote it off as the prop makers could not legally reproduce the diplomas 1:1 for legal reasons and suspended a little more disbelief when it came to the nonsensical aspects. Recall how funny Columbia was about being identified in the first movie yet it's plainly obvious they're on that campus. Could be the same weird legal kung fu but it was decided real world universities should be referenced and not fall back on some made-up names.
#4977394
One time wrote: January 19th, 2023, 3:34 pm Now we are talking. I love your post and analysis. I agree!

The academic study of psi is not as obscure as most people think.

Dan Aykroyd's interest in the field, my passion for Ghostbusters and some personal experiences I have had, are the reason I took several modules of parapsychology at university while doing my Bachelor of Science.

People would be surprised as to how much statistical analysis is at the heart of paranormal studies.

Aykroyd was a member of the ASPR and had many articles which inspired him to write Ghostbusters.

I believe this was one of the first he mentioned:

Image

https://notendur.hi.is/erlendur/english ... inants.pdf

He also references similar studies:

Image

http://www.global-mind.org/papers/pear/ ... usness.pdf

There are -many- academic institutions that offer paranormal studies. The Koestler Parapsychology Unit at Edinburgh University, Rhine Research Center in Durham which used to be Duke University's parapsychology laboratory, University of Northampton, London Goldsmith, UCLA SB's Applied Neuro Causality Laboratory, and more. There are probably 20 universities that offer psi courses.

Also there are numerous fields in which one could obtain a PhD in parapsychology, they need not all be linked to psi. Breakthroughs in statistical analysis, innovative approaches to the Ganzfeld method, novel theorems of differentiating between psudo-psi and possible psi, etc.
Unless I’m mistaken no University of any renowned offers any kind of parapsychology PHD. And for good reason. Unless one wants a good lesson in fraud(which parapsychology is steeped in) degree in parapsychology wouldn’t be worth the paper it’s printed on. Chances are if Harvard, Oxford, Princeton, Columbia, Brown, Berkley, USC, Stanford etc aren’t offering parapsychology classes…there’s a good reason.

Ghosts are about as real as psychic’s which are about as real as mediums which are about as real as fortune tellers which are about as real as fairy dust.

Every psychic, heck any person with any sort of paranormal ability, in the world could’ve had access to what should’ve been the easiest million dollars they’ve ever made. The Randi Prize. Alas in over 30 years not a single person claimed the prize. A few tried, tho they were quickly exposed as frauds.

That’s the problem with the unknown. It brings out all the frauds and grifters.
#4977395
Egon’s_Contraption wrote: January 19th, 2023, 6:58 pm Did you see it on screen, or did you find an image somewhere. I freeze framed it when Phoebe sees them and couldn't make out anything distinct.
I did that as well but 3 or 4 of the prop diplomas are on page 79 of the Art and Making of Ghostbusters: Afterlife book.
#4977398
RichardLess wrote: January 19th, 2023, 7:50 pm
Chances are if Harvard, Oxford, Princeton, Columbia, Brown, Berkley, USC, Stanford etc aren’t offering parapsychology classes…there’s a good reason.
There are some Ivy league graduate programs on psi studies including Columbia University. It depends what you call a university of renown. They include Edinburgh university, Columbia University, Northampton and UCLA SB. At the University of London there are a number of MPhil/PhD students carrying out postgraduate studies in parapsychology.

https://www.parapsych.org/articles/34/3 ... ngdom.aspx
https://libguides.manchestercc.edu/c.ph ... &p=8325512
https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-stu ... -research/
https://www.ed.ac.uk/ppls/psychology/pr ... psychology
https://leverageedu.com/blog/parapsychology-courses/

The Randi Prize, although famous, was bound to a number of testing conditions that were unscientific and aimed to prevent entry. Contrary to popular opinion the courses offered in parapsychology research innovative ways to efficiently debunk pseudo-psi and fraud statistically as much as they aim to study actual psi. But it is a polarizing topic that is easy to ridicule by people who are not in the field.
#4977410
One time wrote: January 19th, 2023, 8:22 pm
RichardLess wrote: January 19th, 2023, 7:50 pm
Chances are if Harvard, Oxford, Princeton, Columbia, Brown, Berkley, USC, Stanford etc aren’t offering parapsychology classes…there’s a good reason.
The Randi Prize, although famous, was bound to a number of testing conditions that were unscientific and aimed to prevent entry. Contrary to popular opinion the courses offered in parapsychology research innovative ways to efficiently debunk pseudo-psi and fraud statistically as much as they aim to study actual psi. But it is a polarizing topic that is easy to ridicule by people who are not in the field.
Concerning the Randi prize, I'm eager to hear why you think this is. I mean what was unscientific about the testing conditions? I won't shy from the fact I'm a card carrying skeptic and atheist; just laying that out there for transparency.

I will also confess my digging on actual parapsychology has been limited to the last two days, and most of my original post derives from my general knowledge of academia and science. Plus, it's just a silly fan theory. Still, I have indeed learned some stuff beyond the generic history everyone knows.

Renown does matter in my opinion, as any diploma mill or private group can set up an "International Center for Scientific Parapsychological Research" or what have you. As far as universities go, the links you provided (and the limited Googling I did yesterday) seem to paint a very scattershot picture of the psi "field." Edinburgh comes up often, but they, like all the reputable oft-cited schools, simply have a "unit" studying psi. Ironically, it consists of two professors and presumably a handful of their students (like in the Ghostbusters example).

As I understand it, faculty can typically set up whatever research group or "institute" they want as along as there is space, funding, and no push-back from the college. Hell, my philosophy department at a small but respectable school had an "International Institute for Human Rights." It was a tiny windowless office (closet, really) with a bookshelf and a single computer.

So far, I have not seen any information regarding formal academic credentialing in parapsychology except as an area in which one can focus their research at the masters and doctorate levels (which a candidate can do in underwater basket-weaving if their advisor allows it). None of the faculty at Virginia, for example, appear to have credentials in psi specifically. Psi and "pseudo-si" are just areas of interest for some members of the psychology faculty.

What I find alarming (as a grouchy skeptic) is that I skimmed through some of their open access articles on subjects like child past life memories. All I can say is the scholarship and reasoning is...pretty abysmal. I didn't get a chance to check before my internet froze up, but I doubt what I was reading was a reputable peer-reviewed publication. They threw around vague terms like "memory bundles" to explain past life experiences. The authors cited anecdotal evidence and provided no criteria for testing, falsification, or even mechanisms explaining how any of it works. Great. That's a hypothesis, I suppose. But if there's no way to confirm or deny it's truth, and if it's unclear how one would even go about proving it right or wrong, it's not a scientific hypothesis. One might as well say the devil did it. I just know if the term paper I'm working on for my masters read like that, I'd expect to get an F.

Finally, I think psi practitioners like to claim street cred for things that are not psi. There are legitimate academic research programs and institutes studying consciousness, neuroscience, and neuropsychology that have nothing to do with parapsychology...like the one at Stanford.
RichardLess liked this
#4977411
One time wrote: January 19th, 2023, 8:22 pm
RichardLess wrote: January 19th, 2023, 7:50 pm
Chances are if Harvard, Oxford, Princeton, Columbia, Brown, Berkley, USC, Stanford etc aren’t offering parapsychology classes…there’s a good reason.
There are some Ivy league graduate programs on psi studies including Columbia University. It depends what you call a university of renown. They include Edinburgh university, Columbia University, Northampton and UCLA SB. At the University of London there are a number of MPhil/PhD students carrying out postgraduate studies in parapsychology.

https://www.parapsych.org/articles/34/3 ... ngdom.aspx
https://libguides.manchestercc.edu/c.ph ... &p=8325512
https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-stu ... -research/
https://www.ed.ac.uk/ppls/psychology/pr ... psychology
https://leverageedu.com/blog/parapsychology-courses/

The Randi Prize, although famous, was bound to a number of testing conditions that were unscientific and aimed to prevent entry. Contrary to popular opinion the courses offered in parapsychology research innovative ways to efficiently debunk pseudo-psi and fraud statistically as much as they aim to study actual psi. But it is a polarizing topic that is easy to ridicule by people who are not in the field.
Where are you seeing that Columbia university offers anything on parapsychology? The only PSI reference I can find is about their fraternity Psi Delta.

The Randi Prize was anything but unscientific. Yes, it required testing conditions but those should be no issue for anyone claiming paranormal abilities. It was not aimed to prevent entry. It was aimed at truth. Let’s say you are right and it was “unscientific” why would that prevent a psychic or telepath from claiming the prize? Surely if one was psychic or telepathic or a medium it would be extremely easy to prove and any conditions would be met with ease. But no. Every psychic failed. Every medium exposed.

Parapsychology tends to deal in pseudoscience and hokum. It’s reputation in academia is about the lowest you can get. It’s riddled with fraud, huckster and people just wanting to get on TV. And the occasional Ghostbusters fan wanting to live out a fantasy.

Most people think “what’s the big deal? It’s fun” but the truth is every so called psychic or medium exists only to rip people off. They take advantage of people in grief or ignorance & charge them again & again. You’ll note no psychic has ever won the lottery, identified a murderer or predicted their own demise. Fascinating.

There are lots of things in the world we cannot explain. But Vampires, Goblins & Ghosts aren’t one of them. There a millions of people who have claimed to see a ghost or had some sort spiritual encounter. Those who aren’t making it up? Before considering “ghost” there’s dozens upon dozens of other phenomena such as “hallucination”,a light trick, sleep paralysis, tinnitus, insomnia, drug side effect, a prank etc etc.

Ghosts aren’t real. I wish they were cause that would be AWESOME. But just think about it logically for two seconds. Think of all the cameras clicking, all the hundreds of millions/billions of selfies taken, all the things that have died on this planet. Billions upon billions of humans, dogs, cats, ants and bees. If ghosts were real we’d have so much evidence it would be embarrassing. They’d be EVERYWHERE. But no. Where are the ghost Roman soliders? The ghost Vikings? The ghost Mayan’s? It’s always people from the Victorian era to the present. That isn’t a coincidence.

But at least we got Ghostbusters out of it.
#4977413
Reductio ad absurdum is an attractive safe haven I admit. Werewolves, sure.

For criticisms of the Randi prize look at the amount of applicants who were refused to be tested. The nature of the prize fund being in the form of pledges or promissory notes and the work of Dennis Rawlins.

The point of parapsychology studies at these universities is finding ways to eliminate exactly what you mention. The fraud and pseudoscience. Personally I think it will take many decades if not more, to establish psi studies as a respectable science (simply because of the rarity among the population of objectifiable data). It is near impossible to overcome the rarity in the population of people who have had objective experiences if one has no first person experience. This is what paranormal studies attempts to tackle through statistical analysis, what is baloney and what cannot be explained using the current state of scientific analysis.

PS: For the ultimate reason why parapsychology studies are not more mainstream, read every post posted in this thread top to bottom including this one.
#4977422
One time wrote: January 19th, 2023, 11:21 pm Reductio ad absurdum is an attractive safe haven I admit. Werewolves, sure.

For criticisms of the Randi prize look at the amount of applicants who were refused to be tested. The nature of the prize fund being in the form of pledges or promissory notes and the work of Dennis Rawlins.

The point of parapsychology studies at these universities is finding ways to eliminate exactly what you mention. The fraud and pseudoscience. Personally I think it will take many decades if not more, to establish psi studies as a respectable science (simply because of the rarity among the population of objectifiable data). It is near impossible to overcome the rarity in the population of people who have had objective experiences if one has no first person experience. This is what paranormal studies attempts to tackle through statistical analysis, what is baloney and what cannot be explained using the current state of scientific analysis.

PS: For the ultimate reason why parapsychology studies are not more mainstream, read every post posted in this thread top to bottom including this one.
Ok. So now you went from saying it was unscientific and now it’s “the amount of applicants who couldn’t be tested”(it costs money to run those tests. Yes certain requirements were needed, which again, shouldn’t be a problem for any psychic, medium or telepath)
Also that “pledges and promissory notes” BS was busted long ago. The Randi Prize would have been given out negotiated bonds. As for Dennis Rawlins, what are you referring to? The time he misquoted Randi?


Lets say the Randi Prize was a big fat nothing. You’d think every psychic, medium or telepath in the world would want to expose that by doing the test, passing and making a fool out of the entire affair. But nope.

I asked where you are getting Columbia University has any sort of parapsychology program or PSI course and you ignored that. Why? Again if I’m mistaken please correct the record.


Parapsychology studies aren’t main stream because they useless. None of this is real and there’s nothing to study. They are a waste of valuable resources that could be going into actual research for things such as curing cancer, or aids, or seedless water melons. Science has laws & foundations that it’s built upon. E = mc2, Newton’s 3rd law.

When the body dies, the brain shuts down and the body starts to decompose. When you get into Ghosts you enter the realm of the spirit which enters the realm of religion and, well, religion deals in faith & we can clearly track the human need for religion & faith. From an anthropology stand point and a psychological stand point. All of these supernatural “things” we can trace back to a humans fear of death and the unknown. They are cultural coping mechanisms. We don’t like to think of our time on this earth as finite. We live and then it’s over. From that we get religion, which gives us the spirit which gives us ghosts. We know this. Like we know why from an evolutionary point of view why children fear the dark.
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#4977547
This is where I get out the popcorn. I try not to get into internet debates on such topics unless it's a large venue where reason might influence a few people to rethink their opinions down the road.

But...I need to further distract myself from writing term papers.

The idea that the Randi Prize is unscientific simply because people refuse to be tested is absurd, and you know deep down it's logically fallacious to say so. Nobody has found Randi's requirements to be methodologically problematic except hucksters knowing they'll be exposed. Over the past several decades, many charlatans have whined about Randi's tests being unfair and unscientific. It's always because they cannot perform in a controlled environment. Then, their apologists inevitably say, "some things can't be tested by science, and scientists just refuse to believe!" B.S.

All anyone has ever asked cold readers, mediums, dowsers, diviners, and people claiming ESP or telepathic abilities to do is demonstrate their skills in controlled conditions they can't manipulate. All anyone has ever required is evidence that ghosts exist. The evidence and explanations should be reproducible and more compelling than simpler, verifiable claims. Paranormal investigator: "Look at these spirit orbs on the photograph!" Professional photographer: "Dude...what are you even talking about? That's the camera flash reflecting off of dust in front of the lens."

If you watch the old James Randi videos on YouTube, you'll see numerous examples of people with supposed powers that conveniently can't do their tricks under controlled conditions. Uri Gellar went on Carson's and could not do his usual schtick because the producers provided all the props. Gellar was not allowed to manipulate the props, mark them, etc. He made excuses (not feeling 'strong' that night) for why he couldn't perform.

Moreover, it's fortuitous that psi was big in the 60s and 70s because the widespread interest created numerous opportunities for dispassionate researchers to falsify psi claims. To date, no one has ever demonstrated psi claims to be true or shown replicable results. Results are always less than or equal to those predicted by blind chance, and explanations of phenomena (the mechanisms responsible) are always vague, anecdotal, and unfalsifiable.

The U.S. intelligence community (IC) dumped tons of money and resources into studying ESP and telepathy in a bid to outcompete the Soviets, who we thought might be doing the same thing. After twenty years, we got nothing. Remote viewing (like in Stranger Things) was a big draw, yet the DIA and CIA got nothing out of their attempts. Internal reviews and after-action testimonies agree it was a huge waste of money, and it produced neither actionable intelligence nor viable prospects for further research. The US IC even worked with Gellar and ultimately concluded he was a fraud.

Again, these parapsychology institutions (such that they exist at reputable universities) are nothing but tiny intellectual hobby horses run by small numbers of faculty. There are no degree programs for parapsychology because universities, with reputations to protect, won't sanction them. If someone wants to do their thesis or dissertation in something related to parapsychology, that's on them; it's their career. But I surmise the people doing such theses and dissertations in psi (if they even exist) do so on things like "The Psychological Profiles of Subjects Claiming ESP Ability" and so forth. In other words, they have to do with describing paranormal belief as a cultural phenomenon...not whether or not paranormal phenomena are real. That's just my guess, but based on my snooping, it seems reasonable.

To your point about psi being objective and all about falsifying bogus psi claims, 1.) I have my doubts; they can say that all they want, but that has nothing to do with whether it's true or how rigorous they are in debunking bad science, and 2.) big deal. What positive results have they been able to produce? Until they can demonstrate the phenomena in question are real and propose verifiable (and falsifiable) mechanisms for why they exist, it's just pseudo-science. It's no more scientific than two guys on the internet debating and rationalizing continuity errors in Star Trek. That's not because science is mean and refuses to acknowledge anything it doesn't understand. Hell, the only reason science exists is to understand the world better. If phenomena psi are real, science can explain it; science is just a process. If there were viable pathways ahead, researchers would be all over it, and there would be a Nobel Prize waiting on the other end. The whole gag in Ghostbusters is that if paranormal entities and spiritual "forces" exist, they can be described mathematically by science. Paradigms shift in science. Proto-scientific hypotheses get falsified (the luminiferous ether and phlogiston theory) and replaced with working theories of nature: special and general relativity or quantum field theory.

Science has its own controversial hypotheses, but they all attempt to address real questions in a given field. Psi advocates can't even demonstrate that a problem or phenomena exists in the first place. Physicist debate whether string theory and loop quantum gravity are scientific or unscientific. However, it's probably not pseudo-science because its at least proposes mathematical solutions to real contradictions between quantum field theory and general relativity. Proponents and critics agree string theory is currently untestable in practice, but it at least explains universally recognized phenomena, and it has mathematical models to back up its hypotheses. Parapsychologists don't even have that. From what I can tell, they don't even consider simple, naturalistic explanations in good faith; they just assume anecdotal reports of special abilities are true and proceed to speculate wildly about what's going on. And that's the people with real credentials in psychology and other fields, to say nothing of the amateur paranormal investigators who like to use fluffy science jargon. Any layman can speculate and come up with fanciful explanations for just about anything. Personally, I don't know how some of these people have jobs. I say that less because of the subject matter and more because of the shoddy scholarship that seems to abound.

I could keep going down the rabbit hole, but I should get back to work. I'll leave off by saying this: Somewhere on Earth, a real physicist's head explodes any time someone runs the 'quantum physics explains spirits and consciousness' line up the flagpole. It makes for good sci-fi comedy, but it's gibberish. Quantum physics jargon sounds spooky and mysterious, therefore it explains how minds can interact with physical environments. Yeah, no.

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